36.2.19.4 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #36. Buddhism, post #20.4: CONTINUATION OF Dhamma Wheel message board discussion: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #36. Buddhism, post #20.4 (36.2.19.4):

This is my second post in this discussion, and maybe will be also my last post in this discussion:

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

• Quote

Post by samsarictravelling » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:20 pm

"Thus the 1st absorption is free from 5 things (i.e. the hindrances, nīvarana), and 5 things are present (i.e. the factors of absorption; jhānanga). Whenever the monk enters the 1st absorption, there have vanished sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and scruples, doubts; and there are present: thought-conception (vitakka), discursive thinking (vicāra) rapture (pīti), joy (sukha), and concentration (samādhi). In the 2nd absorption there are present: rapture, joy and concentration; in the 3rd: joy and concentration; in the 4th: equanimity (upekkhā) and concentration" (Vis.M. IV).

The 4 absorptions of the immaterial sphere (s. above 5-8) still belong, properly speaking, to the 4th absorption as they possess the same two constituents. The 4th fine-material absorption is also the base or starting point (pādaka-jhāna, q.v.) for the attaining of the higher spiritual powers (abhiññā).

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My hopefully clearing up (hopefully not confusing, not making an error in) the meaning of the above copy & paste. Sometimes using different English words (for example, 'sensuality' instead of 'sense desires'), though I mean to have the same meaning:

The 1st jhana is free of the five hindrances (sensuality, ill-will, sloth and torpor, flurry and worry, doubt).

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The 1st jhana has these five factors: vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, samadhi
The 2nd jhana has these three factors, because having lost two factors of the five found in the 1st jhana: piti, sukha, samadhi
The 3rd jhana has these two factors, having lost another factor: sukha, samadhi
The 4th jhana has these two factors: uppekkha, samadhi.

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The four formless jhanas (Infinite Space, Infinite Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-perception-nor-non-perception) after the four jhanas just described, possess the same two factors of the 4th jhana: uppekkha, samadhi

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The 4th jhana is also the base or starting point for the attaining of the higher spiritual powers (abhiññā). (This last information does not really fit in with the subject of just jhanic bliss, but I found it interesting so I included in this post.)

Source of the copy & paste: 'jhāna' entry in Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, by NYANATILOKA at palikanon.com website. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/jhaana.htm

Please excuse me if I do not reply to any repliy to this post.

from,
samsarictravelling

Source: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34636

35.2.19.3 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #35. Buddhism, post #20.3: CONTINUATION OF Dhamma Wheel message board discussion: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #35. Buddhism, post #20.3 (35.2.19.3):

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

• Quote

Post by budo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:07 am

I think you're confusing body tranquility with "no body awareness".

The body must first be tranquilized or calmed for piti and sukha to arise, then the more piti and sukha grow, the more tranquil the body becomes.

In my experience, full body awareness prevents body tranquillity, whereas one pointedness speeds up body tranquility.

Source: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34636

34.2.19.2 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #34. Buddhism, post #20.2: CONTINUATION OF Dhamma Wheel message board discussion: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #34. Buddhism, post #20.2 (34.2.19.2):

This is my first reply post in the discussion:

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

• Quote

Post by samsarictravelling » Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:03 am

confusedlayman wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 am

As the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that? any sutta reference? only bliss feeling is observed and body awareness is completly lost. first vauge bliss and body feeling (little thinking like intension), then bliss and body feeling (no thinking), then bliss alone with no body feeling (body invisible from perception but not in real 3d world), its the most amazing pleasure witnessed never seen anything but not addicting even 1%. again when want to return back, the body comes in to perception and bliss fades gradually and concentration is very fast i.e it moves front and back with 0% laziness.

what state name is this? I am following different method to get to this state but what is the name? thanks for reference pls reference me only sutta that can web link and attach URL.

-confusedlayman

Hi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.

Maybe it's one of the first three jhanas (not the fourth jhana), or a moving through the 1st to the 2nd (to the 3rd)? I wouldn't know. I only attained once in my life a meditative state of peace without thought (possibly took me hours to get to it, can't remember). Only once. And that was when I was 19 or 20 years old. You're lucky, I guess!!! Here are the descriptions of the three jhanas:

Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention. It is the cornerstone in the development of Right Concentration.

The definition (with similes)
[FIRST JHANA]
"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

[SECOND JHANA]
"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure...

[THIRD JHANA]
"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture...

Source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... jhana.html

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Please excuse me if I do not reply to any reply.

From,
samsarictravelling

EDIT:

I. The Immaterial World (arupa-loka)

The inhabitants of these realms are possessed entirely of mind. Having no physical body, they are unable to hear Dhamma teachings.

Source: The Thirty-one Planes of Existence. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

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CHAPTER X
THE IMMATERIAL STATES
(Áruppa-niddesa)
[(1) THE BASE CONSISTING OF BOUNDLESS SPACE]

...

6. When he has seen the danger in that [fine-material fourth jhána] jhána in
this way and has ended his attachment to it, he gives his attention to the base
consisting of boundless space as peaceful.

Source: The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chapter 10. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf

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So, 'Having no physical body' of my first selection, and 'peaceful' in my second selection. And elsewhere at this Dhamma Wheel message board you were talking about space kasina meditation ( viewtopic.php?f=22&t=34621 ). So read the Chapter X (Chapter 10) of Path of Purification and see if it helps you, as well as if it answers your question.

Please excuse me if I do not reply to any reply.

From,
samsarictravelling

Source: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34636

33.2.19.1 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #33. Buddhism, post #20.1: CONTINUATION OF Dhamma Wheel message board discussion: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #33. Buddhism, post #20.1 (33.2.19.1):

Re: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

• Quote

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:25 am

SarathW wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:08 am

This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again. Only in the stages of Awakening that follow on those acts of discernment would "consciousness without feature" be realized.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Hi, But i experience intense (non human) bliss feeling but in your comment it says neither pleasure nor pain. in this experience i experience 100% pleasure feeling and 0% pain as no physical body awareness and no angry emotions.

Source: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34636

32.2.19 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #32. Buddhism, post #20: Dhamma Wheel message board discussion: extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #32. Buddhism post #20 (32.2.19):

Original post/first post of the discussion:

extreme bliss feeling without body awareness

• Quote

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:45 am

As the title says, what kind of state of meditation is that? any sutta reference? only bliss feeling is observed and body awareness is completly lost. first vauge bliss and body feeling (little thinking like intension), then bliss and body feeling (no thinking), then bliss alone with no body feeling (body invisible from perception but not in real 3d world), its the most amazing pleasure witnessed never seen anything but not addicting even 1%. again when want to return back, the body comes in to perception and bliss fades gradually and concentration is very fast i.e it moves front and back with 0% laziness.

what state name is this? I am following different method to get to this state but what is the name? thanks for reference pls reference me only sutta that can web link and attach URL.

-confusedlayman

Source: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34636

The Ronettes - BE MY BABY - [HQ audio]

The Ronettes - BE MY BABY

31.5.2 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #3. Things of the world, post #3: Timeline of selected famous persons.

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #31. Things of the world, post #3 (31.5.2):

Timeline of selected famous persons:

For years, I thought of making a timeline to show the lifetimes of certain famous people. I finally got to it. I could have maybe made mistakes in my graphing in general, or in my graphing of one or more of these famous people, so excuse me if I did. Ronnie Spector was a new choice to put on this timeline, and she is still alive up to this moment on June 21, 2019 possibly (I don't have any supernatural power to see what is happening anywhere else in existence right now at this very moment; I can only get information like that through other's reports, but which are, though, delayed reports (like the internet), not right at this very moment). All the other famous people I selected are already deceased.

I wanted to make this timeline (and finally got to it, like I said) to see how these peoples' lives overlapped, although in the news we maybe never heard of them talking about/associating with each another, though they lived in the same span of time.

The seven chosen by me were:

1. Mahatma Gandhi. October 2, 1869 - January 30, 1948. (78 years old when died.)
2. Ho Chi Minh. May 19, 1890 - September 2, 1969. (79)
3. John F. Kennedy. May 29, 1917 - November 22, 1963. (46)
4. Marilyn Monroe. June 1, 1926 - August 4, 1962. (36)
5. Elvis Presley. January 8, 1935 - August 16, 1977. (42)
6. Bruce Lee. November 27, 1940 - July 20, 1973. (32)
7. Ronnie Spector. August 10, 1943 -

The diagram notes the present time is June 21, 2019 in the lower right-hand corner.

So the diagram is below (click it to open it):

From,
samsarictravelling

If you cannot see it well enough, here is the same diagram saved somewhere else, possibly in a larger size:

https://i.imgur.com/bUD3EWe.png

30.5.1 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #30. Things of the world, post #2: The Ronettes

My second post of information from articles on the Ronettes is found here:
https://samsarictravelling.blogspot.com/2019/06/more-ronettes-stuff.html

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Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #30. Things of the world, post #2 (30.5.1):

The Ronettes

Outside of her window, the mean streets of Spanish Harlem promised danger.

Safely tucked away inside her grandmother’s house, a young Veronica Yvette “Ronnie” Bennett, the future Ronnie Spector, had a birds-eye view of the tough-looking girls that loitered on the sidewalks smoking cigarettes.

The Ronettes would be made in their  image.

“We couldn’t go outside, so we looked at the black girls and the Spanish girls — even some of the white girls you’d throw in there — but we looked at them and that’s how we got our look and stuff,” says Spector. “We wore slits up the side and we wore high hair. We got everything from the street, even though we weren’t allowed in the street (laughs).”

That didn’t matter. With their exotic looks, provocative clothes, and sugar-and-spice vocals, as sultry as they were sweet and full of sass, The Ronettes were the anti-girl group of the early 1960s. They were bad girls, made even badder by the mascara they wore, at a time when all the rest looked and sounded pure and innocent.

Source: https://www.goldminemag.com/articles/ronnie-spector-the-bad-girl-tells-her-story

We've crossed over to the over side. Sitting in the lobby of a West London hotel, Ronnie Spector is explaining the moment The Ronettes recorded "Be My Baby," perhaps the most perfect distillation of pop music of the last 60 years. She pounds a fist on the sofa, mimicking the great Hal Blaine "boom-ba-boom-cha" of the opening and suddenly that familiar voice fills the room: "The night we met I knew I, needed you sooo."

It is one of the most distinctive sounds in the history of modern pop. Clean, high, direct, heavily accented with that thrilling New York twang. The backdrop to a thousand and one breakups and makeups, this is the song that caused John Lennon to almost faint when she sung it in his ear on The Ronettes' first visit to the UK in 1964; caused Bruce Springsteen to spend an entire six months trying to ape its "Wall of Sound" on Born to Run; caused the Beach Boys' Brian Wilson to listen a thousand times in an attempt to crack the formula (only to find out there isn't one).

Produced by her ex-husband, Phil Spector, The Ronettes' "Be My Baby" is as close to bottling actual, genuine magic as human beings have ever come. And now, Ronnie Spector, the group's leader and one of pop music's greatest conduits, is preparing to take to the stage at Glastonbury for the first time and singing with that voice you've heard a hundred times before. Wha-oh-oh-oh, indeed.

...

"The Ronettes were so different from most girl groups," says Ronnie today. "We had interracial parents, long hair. We wore slits up the side, like the Chinese dresses. I remember groups like The Shirelles and The Chiffons would come out with these flared skirts and we would come out in skin tight dresses. We didn't have a hit record at the time but the guys went nuts over us more than the groups that did! Girls too. And I loved that."

Source: https://i-d.vice.com/en_us/article/j583m3/rediscover-ronnie-spector-the-original-bad-girl-of-rock-39n39-roll-us-translation

Ronnie Spector became famous in the 1960s as the lead singer of the Ronettes, whose hits include "Be My Baby" and "Walking in the Rain." She was born Veronica Bennett in New York City on August 10, 1943. She grew up in Spanish Harlem with her mother, father and younger sister, Estelle. The daughter of an Irish father and a mother of African-American and Cherokee descent, Spector struggled as a child to reconcile both sides of her mixed ethnic heritage, a rarity for the time period. Her father, Louis, left the family when Spector and her sister were still very young. Eventually, her exotic features, distinct voice and striking beauty would later prove to be a boon for her music career.

...

Spector has sung and collaborated with multiple artists. She is called the original "bad girl of Rock and Roll". In 2007, Ronnie and the Ronnettes were inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Source: https://www.vintag.es/2018/07/young-ronnie-spector.html

Paradoxically, one place you will not hear “Be My Baby,” is in “Beyond the Beehive,” Ms. Spector’s touring theatrical production of songs and stories. “I’m not allowed to sing ‘Be My Baby’ and ‘Baby I Love You'” — another Ronettes hit — “in my show because Phil said no,” Ms. Spector said in a telephone interview. “He owns the publishing.”

But she is allowed to sing the song in concert, she said, and often closes her club shows with it. (Mr. Spector is currently in prison, serving 19 years to life after his murder conviction in the 2003 death of the actress Lana Clarkson, yet his hold on the song is intact.)

Ms. Spector suggests that innocence is part of the song’s sustained power. She recounts being flown out to Los Angeles as a teenager from Spanish Harlem to record the song at Gold Star Studios. She was then known as Ronnie Bennett. She belted out her vocals in the sound booth while staring down a young but no less odd Mr. Spector.

“I was so much in love,” she said. “That energy comes back to me every time: when I’m singing ‘Be My Baby,’ I’m thinking of us in the studio.”

The soapy darkness now associated with their subsequent marriage (Ms. Spector’s 1990 memoir, also titled “Be My Baby,” recounts wild jealousy and feeling threatened by a gold coffin in the basement of a castle turned de facto prison) informs the song’s myth.

At its heart, “Be My Baby” is as much about power and control as it is about romance. Lyrically it also marks a bold moment in pop music, when a woman makes a play for a man while infantilizing him. Usually the reverse was the norm.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/movies/be-my-baby-a-hit-single-with-staying-power.html

By 1961, the trio had renamed themselves "The Ronettes" and signed with Colpix Records, releasing their first double-sided singles: "I Want a Boy"/"What's So Sweet About Sweet Sixteen" and "I'm Gonna Quit While I'm Ahead"/"My Guiding Angel." They found little success with Colpix, however, and continued to perform in clubs as dancers, eventually getting a steady gig dancing at the Peppermint Lounge on 46th Street. They were still underage and took to stuffing their bras and wearing heavy makeup in order to look older. There they were discovered by DJ Murray the K, who booked them to perform weekly at his Brooklyn Fox Theater's Rock 'n' Roll Revue.

By 1963, the girls had still not found much success with Colpix and made a bold move: They cold-called the legendary producer Phil Spector at Mirasound Studios; struck by their moxie, he agreed to audition them. Phil Spector was well known by that time for his "wall of sound" technique, an overdubbing vocal/orchestral effect that he used throughout the 1960s to produce some of the greatest rock hits of the decade for bands such as The Righteous Brothers, Tina Turner and The Beatles. As Ronnie Spector later recalled, her voice was perfect for this technique because of its distinct sound: "Phil won the lottery when he met me, because I had a perfect voice. It wasn't a black voice; it wasn't a white voice. It was just a great voice. His whole life has been me."

Source: https://www.biography.com/musician/ronnie-spector 





 This is the US TV show Shindig! version of 'Be My Baby' by the Ronettes, aired August 11, 1965:

I did some searching and found you can buy it on a Shindig! DVD set (the set is called 'Volumes 21 & 22') found at The Video Beat website:

https://www.thevideobeat.com/rock-roll-tv/shindig-1965-vol-21-22.html

(It is in the section Season 1, Show 48,  Aired: Aug-11-65, of that set.)

NOTE: Before I purchased it, I checked if it was really a legitimate website, without phishing, by doing a google search of this search phrase, or something like it:

is the website safe?

( https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&ei=sH4JXbS4CfnA0PEPqZGfsA8&q=is+the+website+safe%3F&oq=is+the+website+safe%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0j0i22i30l9.6450.6913..7747...0.0..0.50.98.2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67.W-WWHisu1V8 )

And getting some review sites where I could enter the The Video Beat's URL ( https://www.thevideobeat.com ) and seeing what it says about that URL.

I found that The Video Beat website URL is legitimate at all the review sites I checked it with.

From,
samsarictravelling

Sha Na Na ~With Guest Ronnie Spector and the Ronettes.AVI

The Ronettes- Be My Baby (1964)

Be My Baby - The Ronettes - 1963 - Stereo - Music Video

29.2.18 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #29. Buddhism, post #19: Definitions for an Arahant's or Non-returner's 'cessation of perception and feeling' abiding and a Non-Percipient deva's state.

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #29. Buddhism post #19 (29.2.18):

Definitions for an Arahant's or Non-returner's 'cessation of perception and feeling' abiding and a Non-Percipient deva's state:

Original source of these posts (including the post of mine in this collection): In the discussion titled 'Land' at 'Dhamma Wheel' message board -- https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=33683 :

...

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by SarathW » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:27 am

"Body (matter) only, no mind.

Very interesting indeed!

What is the difference between an Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti (cessation of perception and feeling) and a non-percipient being?

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by zan » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:05 pm

"SarathW wrote: ↑

                 "Body (matter) only, no mind. 

Very interesting indeed!What is the difference between an Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti (cessation of perception and feeling) and a non-percipient being? 

Thanks and I don't know, good question.

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by santa100 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:33 pm

"SarathW wrote:  
 What is the difference between an Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti (cessation of perception and feeling) and a non-percipient being?

Enlightenment obviously  . On a technical level, the Arahant's sanna is intact. It only temporarily ceases during the Nirodha session while the ASannaSatta's sanna simply isn't there, hence the term ASannaSatta (being without sanna).

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by samsarictravelling » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:20 am

"zan wrote: ↑

          "SarathW wrote: ↑

                  "Body (matter) only, no mind.

         Very interesting indeed! What is the difference between an Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti (cessation of perception and feeling) and a non-percipient being?

Thanks and I don't know, good question.

The question was for someone else, but I reply to it here. I don't myself know what the difference in the experience of abiding as an non-percipient being (asaññasatta) compared to an Arahant or Anāgāmi (Non-returner) in Nirodha Samapatti would be -- personally, I have hardly any meditative attainment myself, nor do I know the information from any literature (except that it is said of Nirodha Samapatti: 'The peace it gives is reckoned as Nibbána here and now' in the very end of this post, so that might make the experience of it higher that the experience of an asaññasatta? I don't know.) -- but I can tell you the qualities of each. I did some research to add to previous knowledge of this, to come up with this (possibly it took around 4 hours to research and write this, I am guessing):

non-percipient beings (asaññasatta). See: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... /loka.html

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The attainment is said to be the outcome of a mode of practice called the “development of dispassion towards perception” (saññāvirāga-bhāvanā). The Pali texts deal only very cursorily with this, presumably because it’s deemed to be a wrong practice that leads only to rebirth as an impercipient deva – a rather useless achievement unless you like the idea of spending five hundred aeons as a de facto stone.

In the Sammohavinodanī Buddhaghosa merely states:
“Of the non-percipient beings” means “of the beings lacking perception.” Certain persons, having gone forth in dispensations outside [of the Buddha’s teaching], perceive a defect in consciousness (citta), [thinking]: ‘being greedy, hateful or deluded depends on consciousness; but a state free of consciousness would be beautiful – it would be Nibbāna in the present life.’ They then generate dispassion towards perception (saññāvirāga) and developing the fifth attainment (samāpatti) in conformity with this [view] they are reborn there [i.e., in the realm of the impercipient beings]. At the moment of their rebirth only the aggregate of matter (rūpakkhandha) is produced. If they are reborn standing, they stand only; if sitting, they sit only; if lying down, they lie only. They then remain for five hundred kalpas just like painted statues. After that their bodies disappear and a sense-sphere perception arises leading those [former] devas to realize that their [non-percipient] body has now passed away.
(Vibh-a. 520-1)

Source: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=25789&hilit

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Ancient meditators (in the line of Alarakalama, Uddakaramaputta) knew the problem lies with "Sanna". World is created by Sanna it's anihilated by Sanna. So they were looking for a refuge from the pilage of Sanna. Maybe they were looking something beyond Sanna perhaps... So they were examining Sanna and how to find an escape from it.


As you climb the ladder of Jhana you give up considerable amount of Sanna that contribute to the vividness of the world. At neither perception nor non perception there exist only very subtle form of Sanna ( subtlest form of Sanna about Sanna bound by the impermenece , that's how I understand it).

Forth Jhana is the last rupa Jhana which only has one pointedness and equaminity. Similar to the last formless Jhana in someways. Some meditators who arrived at this state saw not something beyond Sanna but equaminity, but it's still attached to Sanna. Still bound by it. Born of it. Worldly being would consider equaminity to be a higher achievement but these folk saw that equaminity is still a Sanna. They were at the end of Rupa Jhana yet still haven't found refuge.

In this state they meditated on "Dhi Cittam". This phrase is suppose to say " disgusting cittam, shamefull cittam". And that repulsion towards Sanna or citta caused the state called Asanna satta in forth Jhana realm.

Or it could be they meditated on Dhi cittam from the day one but could not go beyond last Rupa Jhana because they didn't focus on relinquishing form. They were merely concerned on giving up mind.

In case you want sutta support look for the phrase "Dhi Cittam". I remember reading it somewhere but couldn't recall where.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=34174&start=15

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Arhant in Nirodha Samapatti ('cessation of perception and feeling', you called it. Actually it is 'attainment of extinction'). This Nirodha Samapatti is also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha ('extinction of feeling and perception', or ' cessation of ideation and feeling', or 'cessation of perception and feeling'):

32. But the detail is this. When a bhikkhu who desires to attain cessation has
finished all that has to do with his meal and has washed his hands and feet
well, he sits down on a well-prepared seat in a secluded place. Having folded
his legs crosswise, set his body erect, established mindfulness in front of him, he
attains the first jhána, and on emerging he sees the formations in it with insight
as impermanent, painful, not-self.

33. This insight is threefold as insight that discerns formations, insight for the
attainment of fruition, and insight for the attainment of cessation. Herein, insight
that discerns formations, whether sluggish or keen, is the proximate cause only for
a path. Insight for the attainment of fruition, which is only valid when keen, is
similar to that for the development of a path. Insight for the attainment of cessation
is only valid when it is not over-sluggish and not over-keen. Therefore he sees those
formations with insight that is not over-sluggish and not over-keen.

34. After that, he attains the second jhána, and on emerging he sees formations
with insight in like manner. After that, he attains the third jhána … (etc.) … After
that, he attains the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and on emerging
he sees the formations in it in like manner. Likewise he attains the base consisting
of nothingness. On emerging from that he does the fourfold preparatory task,
that is to say, about (a) non-damage to others’ property, (b) the Community’s
waiting, (c) the Master’s summons, and (d) the limit of the duration. [706]

35. (a) Herein, non-damage to others’ property refers to what the bhikkhu has
about him that is not his personal property: a robe and bowl, or a bed and chair,
or a living room, or any other kind of requisite kept by him but the property of
various others. It should be resolved14 that such property will not be damaged,
will not be destroyed by fire, water, wind, thieves, rats, and so on. Here is the form
of the resolve: “During these seven days let this and this not be burnt by fire; let
it not be swept off by water; let it not be spoilt by wind; let it not be stolen by
thieves; let it not be devoured by rats, and so on.” When he has resolved in this
way, they are not in danger during the seven days.

36. If he does not resolve in this way, they may be destroyed by fire, etc., as in the
case of the Elder Mahá Nága. The elder, it seems, went for alms into the village
where his mother, a lay follower, lived. She gave him rice gruel and seated him in
the sitting hall. The elder sat down and attained cessation. While he was sitting
there the hall caught fire. The other bhikkhus each picked up their seats and
fled. The villagers gathered together, and seeing the elder, they said, “What a
lazy monk! What a lazy monk!” The fire burned the grass thatch, the bamboos,
and timbers, and it encircled the elder. People brought water and put it out. They
removed the ashes, did repairs,15 scattered flowers, and then stood respectfully
waiting. The elder emerged at the time he had determined. Seeing them, he said,
“I am discovered!,” and he rose up into the air and went to Piyaògu Island. This
is “non-damage to others’ property.”

37. There is no special resolving to be done for what is his own personal
property such as the inner and outer robes or the seat he is sitting on. He protects
all that by means of the attainment itself, like those of the venerable Sañjìva. And
this is said: “There was success by intervention of concentration in the venerable
Sañjìva. There was success by intervention of concentration in the venerable
Sáriputta” (Paþis I 212—see XII.30).

38. (b) The Community’s waiting is the Community’s expecting. The meaning
is: till this bhikkhu comes there is no carrying out of acts of the Community. And
here it is not the actual Community’s waiting that is the preparatory task, but the
adverting to the waiting. So it should be adverted to in this way: “While I am
sitting for seven days in the attainment of cessation, if the Community wants to
enact a resolution, etc., I shall emerge before any bhikkhu comes to summon
me.” [707] One who attains it after doing this emerges at exactly that time.

39. But if he does not do so, then perhaps the Community assembles, and not
seeing him, it is asked, “Where is the bhikkhu so and so?” They reply, “He has
attained cessation.” The Community dispatches a bhikkhu, telling him, “Go
and summon him in the name of the Community.” Then as soon as the bhikkhu
stands within his hearing and merely says, “The Community is waiting for you,
friend,” he emerges. Such is the importance of the Community’s order. So he
should attain in such-wise that, by adverting to it beforehand, he emerges by
himself.

40. (c) The Master’s summons: here too it is the adverting to the Master’s summons
that is the preparatory task. So that also should be adverted to in this way:
“While I am sitting for seven days in the attainment of cessation, if the Master,
after examining a case, makes known a course of training, or teaches the Dhamma,
the origin of which discourse is some need that has arisen,16 I shall emerge
before anyone comes to summon me.” For when he has seated himself after
doing so, he emerges at exactly that time.

41. But if he does not do so, when the Community assembles, the Master, not
seeing him, asks, “Where is the bhikkhu so and so?” They reply, “He has attained
cessation.” Then he dispatches a bhikkhu, telling him, “Go and summon him in
my name.” As soon as the bhikkhu stands within his hearing and merely says,
“The Master calls the venerable one,” he emerges. Such is the importance of the
Master’s summons. So he should attain in such wise that, by adverting to it
beforehand, he emerges himself.

42. (d) The limit of duration is the limit of life’s duration. For this bhikkhu
should be very careful to determine what the limit of his life’s duration is. He
should attain only after adverting in this way: “Will my own vital formations go
on occurring for seven days or will they not?” For if he attains it without adverting
when the vital formations are due to cease within seven days, then since the
attainment of cessation cannot ward off his death because there is no dying
during cessation,17 he consequently emerges from the attainment meanwhile. So
he should attain only after adverting to that. For it is said that while it may be
permissible to omit adverting to others, this must be adverted to.

43. Now, when he has thus attained the base consisting of nothingness and
emerged and done this preparatory task, he then attains the base consisting of
neither perception nor non-perception. Then after one or two turns of
consciousness have passed, he becomes without consciousness, he achieves
cessation. But why do consciousnesses not go on occurring in him after the two
consciousnesses? Because the effort is directed to cessation. For this bhikkhu’s
mounting through the eight attainments, coupling together the states of serenity
and insight, [708] is directed to successive cessation, not to attaining the base
consisting of neither perception nor non-perception. So it is because the effort is
directed to cessation that no more than the two consciousnesses occur.

44. But if a bhikkhu emerges from the base consisting of nothingness without
having done this preparatory task and then attains the base consisting of neither
perception nor non-perception, he is unable then to become without
consciousness: he returns to the base consisting of nothingness and settles
down there.

45. And here the simile of the man and the road not previously travelled may
be told. A man who had not previously travelled a certain road came to a ravine
cut by water, or after crossing a deep morass he came to a rock heated by a fierce
sun. Then without arranging his inner and outer garments, he descended into
the ravine but came up again for fear of wetting his belongings and remained
on the bank, or he walked up on to the rock but on burning his feet he returned
to the near side and waited there.

46. Herein, just as the man, as soon as he had descended into the ravine, or
walked up on to the hot rock, turned back and remained on the near side because
he had not seen to the arrangement of his inner and outer garments, so too as
soon as the meditator has attained the base consisting of neither perception nor
non-perception, he turns back and remains in the base consisting of nothingness
because the preparatory task has not been done.

47. Just as when a man who has travelled that road before comes to that place,
he puts his inner garment on securely, and taking the other in his hand, crosses
over the ravine, or so acts as to tread only lightly on the hot rock and accordingly
gets to the other side, so too, when the bhikkhu does the preparatory task and
then attains the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, then
he achieves cessation, which is the other side, by becoming without
consciousness.

48. (vii) How is it made to last? It lasts as long as the time predetermined for its
duration, unless interrupted meanwhile by the exhaustion of the life span, by
the waiting of the Community, or by the Master’s summons.

49. (viii) How does the emergence from it come about? The emergence comes about
in two ways thus: by means of the fruition of non-return in the case of the non-
returner, or by means of the fruition of Arahantship in the case of the Arahant.

50. (ix) Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards
Nibbána. For this is said: “When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of
the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visákha, his consciousness
inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion” (M I 302). [709]

51. (x) What is the difference between one who has attained and one who is dead?
This is also given in a sutta, according as it is said: “When a bhikkhu is dead,
friend, has completed his term, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite
still, his verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations
have ceased and are quite still, his life is exhausted, his heat has subsided, and
his faculties are broken up. When a bhikkhu has entered upon the cessation of
perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and are quite still, his
verbal formations have ceased and are quite still, his mental formations have
ceased and are quite still, his life is unexhausted, his heat has not subsided, his
faculties are quite whole” (M I 296).

52. (xi) As to the question is the attainment of cessation formed or unformed, etc.? It is
not classifiable as formed or unformed, mundane or supramundane. Why?
Because it has no individual essence. But since it comes to be attained by one
who attains it, it is therefore permissible to say that it is produced, not
unproduced.18

This too is an attainment which
A Noble One may cultivate;
The peace it gives is reckoned as
Nibbána here and now.
A wise man by developing
The noble understanding can
With it himself endow;
So this ability is called
A boon of understanding, too,
The noble paths allow.

Source: The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chapter XXIII, 16-52: The Attainment of Cessation --
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf

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