41.2.22 Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #41. Buddhism, post #23: Example of how to search Theravada Buddhism's holy scriptures.

Wisdom and Knowledge Series, post #41. Buddhism, post #23 (41.2.22):

Example of how to search Theravada Buddhism's holy scriptures.

Source of below: A post of mine in the 'Dhamma Wheel' message board discussion titled 'Saddha': https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34515&start=15

Re: Saddha

• Quote

Post by samsarictravelling » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:42 am

UpasakaAbhaya wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:14 am

Dear all,

I wanted to thank you all again for your replies. DooDoot and samsarictravelling, thank you for directing me to MN 60. I had skimmed it in search what I was looking for, but missed the important bits.  (kiriyavada, etc.)

Somewhat related, someone has something akin to "This being is bound to Samara, Kamma is his means for going beyond." in their signature. They list the reference as S I 38, I believe, which is SN 1:57 if I recall. But I can't find the source of the above translation. I think the word is something like parayana or paraya which is being translated as" going beyond" above, but most seem to take it to indicate "destiny." No need to go into the word destiny, I know we don't hold with presetermination. Just wondering about the source of the translation.

Metta and peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Upasaka Abhaya (Andrew)

I googled the quote -- but put a s in Samara to make it Samsara:

This being is bound to Samsara, Kamma is his means for going beyond

And got by tiltbillings, in his signature:

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

Source: viewtopic.php?t=723

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Now I checked what comprises Sutta Nipata:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... index.html

To make a long story short: I don't think it is from the Sutta Nipata.

( Also, in my searching, I found 'SN' stands for Samyutta Nikaya, while 'Sn' stands for Sutta Nipata. Tiltbillings wrote 'SN', so he might have meant Samyutta Nikaya:

References
Citations
1. When referencing suttas from the Sutta Nipata the case-sensitive abbreviation "Sn" is used. This is distinguished from the abbreviation "SN" which traditionally refers to the Pali canon's Samyutta Nikaya.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutta_Nipata )

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I checked what comprises the Samyutta Nikaya:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/index.html

I noticed on that page -- I boldface the pertinent part:

Sagatha Vagga — The Section of Verses
1. Devata-samyutta — Devas
SN 1.55: Jana Sutta — Engendered {S i 37} [Thanissaro]. The Buddha answers some riddles. [TB]

S i 37 looks like possibly something to do with tiltbillings's 'SN I, 38'.

So I clicked it. And scrolled and saw -- I boldface different pertinent parts:

57. [PTS Page 038]. [\q 38/] ] Kiṃ su janeti purisaṃ kiṃ su tassa vidhāvati,
Kiṃ su saṃsāramāpādi kiṃ su tassa parāyaṇanti.

(Bhagavā:)
Taṇhā janeti purisaṃ cittamassa vidhāvati,
Satto saṃsāramāpādi kammaṃ tassa parāyaṇanti.

So the [PTS Page 038] stands for Pali Text Society or something to do with the Pali text, maybe. And it's on page 38 of that. Tiltbillings had 'SN I, 38'. Looking at the Pali, I saw the words samsara and kamma. Tiltbillings's quote had the words samsara and kamma in it, too ('This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond'). I may have found it!

I saw just that Pali did not give the whole meaning of tiltbillings's quote ('This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond'). To make a long story short, I think it could be tiltbillings giving his interpretation of some lines all found on that PTS page 38. I also give the English translation I got at SUTTACENTRAL for the Pali:

I boldface some parts so you can correlate it with the Pali page mentioned above at accesstoinsight.org:

linked discourses 1 saṃyutta nikāya 1

6. old age 6. jarāvagga

57. Gives Birth (3rd) 57. Tatiyajanasutta
“What gives birth to a person? “Kiṃsu janeti purisaṃ,
What do they have that runs about? kiṃsu tassa vidhāvati;
What enters transmigration? Kiṃsu saṃsāramāpādi,
What is their destiny?” kiṃsu tassa parāyanan”ti.

“Craving gives birth to a person. “Taṇhā janeti purisaṃ,
Their mind is what runs about. cittamassa vidhāvati;
A sentient being enters transmigration. Satto saṃsāramāpādi,
Deeds are their destiny.” kammaṃ tassa parāyanan”ti.

linked discourses 1 saṃyutta nikāya 1

6. old age 6. jarāvagga

58. Deviation 58. Uppathasutta
“What’s declared to be a deviation? “Kiṃsu uppatho akkhāto,
What is ending day and night? kiṃsu rattindivakkhayo;
What’s the stain of celibacy? Kiṃ malaṃ brahmacariyassa,
What’s the waterless bath?” kiṃ sinānamanodakan”ti.

“Lust is declared to be a deviation. “Rāgo uppatho akkhāto,
Youth is ending day and night. Vayo rattindivakkhayo;
Women are the stain of celibacy, Itthī malaṃ brahmacariyassa,
to which this generation clings. Etthāyaṃ sajjate pajā;
Austerity and celibacy Tapo ca brahmacariyañca,
are the waterless bath.” Taṃ sinānamanodakan”ti.

linked discourses 1 saṃyutta nikāya 1

6. old age 6. jarāvagga

59. A Partner 59. Dutiyasutta
“What is a person’s partner? “Kiṃsu dutiyā purisassa hoti,
What instructs them? Kiṃsu cenaṃ pasāsati;
Enjoying what is a mortal Kissa cābhirato macco,
released from all suffering?” Sabbadukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

“Faith is a person’s partner. “Saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti,
Wisdom instructs them. Paññā cenaṃ pasāsati;
Delighting in extinguishment a mortal Nibbānābhirato macco,
is released from all suffering.” Sabbadukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Source: https://suttacentral.net/sn1-jaravagga

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The above from SUTTACENTRAL is correlated with the Pali from accesstoinsight.org :

1. 6. 7
Tatiyajanetisuttaṃ
(Devatā:)

57. [PTS Page 038]. [\q 38/] ] Kiṃ su janeti purisaṃ kiṃ su tassa vidhāvati,
Kiṃ su saṃsāramāpādi kiṃ su tassa parāyaṇanti.

(Bhagavā:)
Taṇhā janeti purisaṃ cittamassa vidhāvati,
Satto saṃsāramāpādi kammaṃ tassa parāyaṇanti.

...up to the section:

1. 6. 9.
Dutiyāsuttaṃ
(Devatā:)
59. Kiṃ su dutiyā2 purisassa hoti kiṃ su venaṃ pasaṃsati,
Kissa cābhirato macco sabbadukkhā pamuccatīti.

(Bhagavā:) saddhā dutiyā purisassa hoti paññā cenaṃ pasaṃsati,
Nibbāṇābhirato macco sabbadukkhā pamuccatīti.

Source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#pts.037

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So, to conclude:

Tiltbillings's quote:

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

In my opinion, is his summary of sections 57 to 59 as found on page 38 of PTS. Those sections 57 to 59 as found on page 38 of PTS translated into English (by Bhikkhu Sujato) are:

57. Gives Birth (3rd)

“What gives birth to a person?
What do they have that runs about?
What enters transmigration?
What is their destiny?”

“Craving gives birth to a person.
Their mind is what runs about.
A sentient being enters transmigration.
Deeds are their destiny.”

58. Deviation

“What’s declared to be a deviation?
What is ending day and night?
What’s the stain of celibacy?
What’s the waterless bath?”

“Lust is declared to be a deviation.
Youth is ending day and night.
Women are the stain of celibacy,
to which this generation clings.
Austerity and celibacy
are the waterless bath.”

59. A Partner

“What is a person’s partner?
What instructs them?
Enjoying what is a mortal
released from all suffering?”

“Faith is a person’s partner.
Wisdom instructs them.
Delighting in extinguishment a mortal
is released from all suffering.”

Source: https://suttacentral.net/sn1-jaravagga

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samsarictravelling

EDIT: If you were looking for the Pali source, I gave it:

“Taṇhā janeti purisaṃ,
cittamassa vidhāvati;
Satto saṃsāramāpādi,
kammaṃ tassa parāyanan”ti.

Maybe tiltbillings translated "parāyanan” (or whatever; I don't know how to read Pali) as 'going beyond', while Sujato and Bodhi both translate it as 'destiny'.

I think -- but I could be wrong -- tiltbillings specifically meant Nibbana when he said 'going beyond', while I think Bodhi when he said 'destiny', meant it could be a destiny of just another rebirth, or instead for some others, the attainment of Nibbana. Sujato might have just meant just another rebirth when he said 'destiny', or could have meant the same thing as Bodhi.

If what I say is really the situation, I don't know who is correct: tiltbillings, one of the monks, or both of the monks.

Because I did not know what "parāyanan" was all about until I reread your question post, and read this in coincidentally a presently discussed question right now, called 'Nibbana', I had answered with my opinion it was tiltbillings giving a summary of 57 to 59 of page 38:

The noble eightfold path has a clearly defined and very specific final goal (pariyosāna), a precise destination (parāyana). This goal is the elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, and the elimination of delusion.
Source: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=29208&start=15

So, my interpretation of tiltbillings's quote may be wrong if he was just translating 57 on page 38, translating "parāyanan” as 'going beyond' (rather than 'destiny', like Sujato and Bodhi did).

(Or else it could still be right if tiltbillings was actually summarizing 57 to 59 on page 38, as I previously said, but that is unlikely.)

Now, about the MN 60:

If you want to understand it like I did, read that sutta in its entirety, and the notes Bhikkhu Bodhi gives for it (I think the notes are at the back of the book), from his Wisdom Publications edition of it. I bought the book, not the ebook, although you might want to buy the ebook if you want it right away:

THE MIDDLE LENGTH DISCOURSES OF THE BUDDHA
A Translation of the Majjhima Nikāya
BHIKKHU ÑĀṆAMOLI
BHIKKHU BODHI

Source: https://wisdomexperience.org/product/mi ... es-buddha/

samsarictravelling